Marie Harf - Daily Press Briefing - June 3, 2015 - US State Dept ignores OSCE data

Marie Harf
Senior Advisor for Strategic Communications
Daily Press Briefing
Washington, DC
June 3, 2015
...


And lastly on Ukraine, we are disturbed by reports, including those from the OSCE that combined Russian-separatist forces launched coordinated attacks overnight against Ukrainian positions near Donetsk – near Donetsk city in Pisky, Luhansk, and Maryinca. We are now seeing unconfirmed reports that the town of Maryinca may have fallen. These attacks by combined Russian-separatist forces are on the Ukrainian side of the ceasefire line. They have reportedly utilized Grad rockets and other heavy weapons that should have been withdrawn under the February Minsk plan, and they’ve reportedly killed at least one and injured 20 Ukrainians. Any new attack or aggressive action by combined Russian-separatist forces is unacceptable and contravenes the Minsk agreements. Russia bears direct responsibility for preventing these attacks and implementing a ceasefire. Any attempts to seize additional Ukrainian territory will be met with increased costs.
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QUESTION: Can I follow up on the Ukraine stuff?

MS HARF: Sure.

QUESTION: So Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, said that the fresh fighting was – had stalled the peace plan – I’m sorry, stalled peace talks. Is this your understanding as well?

MS HARF: Well, I saw some of those reports, and as I said, Russia bears direct responsibility for what’s happening here. These are combined Russian separatist forces that launched coordinated attacks overnight against Ukrainian positions on the Ukrainian Government’s side of the ceasefire line.

QUESTION: Do you know if – this is all happening just before the EU discusses whether to keep sanctions against Russia. Has the U.S. been advising them in any direction?

MS HARF: Well, we’ve certainly been in close coordination with our European counterparts on this issue of sanctions particularly.

QUESTION: And is the U.S. considering anything new or continuous on the sanctions as well?

MS HARF: Well, we’ve said if Russia continues its aggressive actions and violations of international law, the contest – the costs, excuse me, will continue to rise. But we’ve also said if the Minsk agreements are fully implemented by Russia, we can roll back some significant sanctions. So the choice is really on Russia here on sanctions.

QUESTION: So is this your – is what’s happening now, given that you’re blaming Russia for this, that you believe that the sanctions should be increased, or --

MS HARF: We’ll continue to impose additional costs, and we’re having those conversations internally, certainly, and with our partners. And I don’t have much more detail to share today.

Michael, yes.

QUESTION: Marie, on Ukraine.

MS HARF: Mm-hmm.

QUESTION: This terminology, “combined Russian-separatist forces,” I think was introduced here a few weeks ago --

MS HARF: Mm-hmm, it was.

QUESTION: -- in a statement. Could you explain that a little more? It seems to me that what you’re referring to are – they’re Russian conventional military forces with separatist forces, but actual Russian troops? Or what do you mean by “combined Russian-separatist forces”? Are they under Russian command and control? Are they regular Russian army troops? Do you have any numbers as to --

MS HARF: As to how many?

QUESTION: -- how many personnel are involved in this --

MS HARF: Numbers are --

QUESTION: -- what sort of asset – weapons systems they have?

MS HARF: Yeah. Numbers are a little hard to come by on this given that Russia actively tries to camouflage its soldiers that are going in. They take off their insignias; they’ve covered up their insignias on tanks, for example, and trying to scrub them. But the Russian military has advanced air defense systems in eastern Ukraine. Russian and separatist forces have a large concentration of command and control equipment in eastern Ukraine together. Combined Russian-separatist forces have conducted complex training together in eastern Ukraine. And really, the complex nature of this training leaves no doubt that Russia was involved itself in this training. And this training has also incorporated Russian UAVs, an, I think, unmistakable sign of Russia’s presence. Russia’s shipped additional heavy weaponry into eastern Ukraine. Combined Russian-separatist forces maintain artillery pieces and multiple rocket launcher systems within areas that are prohibited. So they’re really operating together here. Russia’s taking steps to cover this up and to mask what they’re doing, but again, given the kinds of weaponry, given the kinds of command and control, certainly these are combined forces operating in eastern Ukraine.

QUESTION: Just two quick clarifications.

MS HARF: Mm-hmm.

QUESTION: Are they under Russian command and control? That seems to be what you’re asserting.

MS HARF: Well, no, I said the Russian-separatist forces are jointly operating command and control equipment together in eastern Ukraine.

QUESTION: And these are Russian army troops?

MS HARF: I don’t know if it’s army. I’m happy to check on specifics. But we’ve said Russian troops, yes.

QUESTION: And the UAVs are being flown from within Ukrainian territory, or across the border from Russia, or both?

MS HARF: Well, they’re Russian UAVS. Let me see if we have more details about where they’re being flown from.

QUESTION: Okay. Thank you.

MS HARF: You’re welcome.

Yes.

QUESTION: Yes, thank you. Ukraine. Last week, your colleague here at the briefing said that Ukraine’s rebel forces are responsible for, quote, “the overwhelming number of violations of the Minsk agreements.” I’m looking at the OSCE daily reports for the last two months – daily reports of violations – and here’s what they show: Ceasefire violations – in nine of their reports, it appears that Donetsk and Lugansk forces were – have violated the ceasefire. In eight of their reports, it appears that the Ukrainian Government has violated the ceasefire. In nine of the reports, it was not clear who violated that ceasefire. Now, withdrawal of heavy weapons: rebel forces, 33 reports of violations; government forces, 35 reports of violations. This is hardly a vast majority behind --

MS HARF: I haven’t seen --

QUESTION: A question.

MS HARF: Go ahead.

QUESTION: Where do you – and I mean the State Department – get the information that the rebel forces are responsible for the vast majority of violations?

MS HARF: From a variety of sources, including the OSCE. So I’m happy to take a look at what you’ve quoted specifically and look at the numbers underlying that.

QUESTION: I’m looking at all their daily --

MS HARF: But there’re a lot of numbers here, and a lot of people can use numbers in different ways, and I want to take a look at them myself. But what we know from the OSCE – again, I can take a look at what numbers you’re quoting, and I’m happy to get into them specifically and see what more we can say.

QUESTION: The daily reports – their daily reports do not show an overwhelming majority.

MS HARF: I think our experts who look at them say something different, so let me go back to our team. But everything we’re getting from the OSCE and other sources of information indicates that a vast majority, as my colleague said, are from the Russian separatist combined forces. So we can go through the numbers, and I’m happy to do that, but again – I would also mention that the Russian separatist forces are preventing OSCE access in many places and they’re not letting them in to see what’s actually going on.

QUESTION: A simple question: Do you acknowledge that the Ukrainian Government too is violating the Minsk agreements?

MS HARF: Well, I think by saying a vast majority are the Russian separatist forces, that would then indicate --

QUESTION: But --

MS HARF: -- that a small, a very small minority are on the other side. But let’s also remember here --

QUESTION: That is not clear from the OSCE daily report.

MS HARF: I just told you I would look at them, and we can get into a numbers game here and see what numbers you’re using and what other experts, including our team, says. Broadly speaking, though, this is Ukrainian territory. The Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves when Russia sends into their territory heavy weapons, tanks, fighters, across that – just today across the ceasefire line into Ukrainian territory.

QUESTION: But that was not my question. Can I – it’s a simple yes or no question.

MS HARF: I think I just answered your question.

QUESTION: Do you acknowledge that the Ukrainian Government too is violating the Minsk agreements? Yes or no.

MS HARF: I think I just – I think I – we don’t do yes or no’s here. I think I just answered your question when I said if a large majority is the Russian separatist forces, then there’s a very small minority that is on the other side. I think I answered your question.

QUESTION: Is that a yes?

MS HARF: I’m not going to play that game with you.

QUESTION: It is not a game.

MS HARF: Justin, let’s move on.

QUESTION: OSCE reports --

MS HARF: I said I --

QUESTION: -- show violations on both sides.

MS HARF: I said I would look into these reports, and I don’t have anything else for you until I’ve seen them myself.

QUESTION: Why do you feel so uncomfortable to acknowledge --

MS HARF: I don’t.

QUESTION: -- that the Ukrainian Government too is violating the Minsk agreements?

MS HARF: I don’t feel uncomfortable about – I just answered your question.

QUESTION: Then why – you did not answer it. Yes or no. Did you answer question --

MS HARF: I’m not going to say yes or no.

QUESTION: -- do you acknowledge that the Ukrainian Government --

MS HARF: I’m going to answer the question in the way I think is appropriate, and I just did. And I’m going to move on now.

QUESTION: Which is not answering.

MS HARF: Justin.

QUESTION: Wait, wait. Just on this, Marie.

MS HARF: Yeah. Or Matt, go ahead.

QUESTION: Do you – as far as I can tell, you are acknowledging that there are some violations. You say --

MS HARF: We’ve said that publicly.

QUESTION: Exactly.

MS HARF: Correct.

QUESTION: But why did it take so long to get to the point where you would acknowledge them? I mean, two weeks ago there was no answer to the question at all, not even what you said --

MS HARF: I think often information is just conflicting and we don’t have all the information we need to answer that question.

QUESTION: And --

MS HARF: In part, again, because OSCE monitors can’t get into a lot of these places.

QUESTION: Given – if we accept what you say is happening is happening, and there are certainly independent reports of --

MS HARF: Absolutely.

QUESTION: -- big fighting going on, isn’t Minsk dead now?

MS HARF: Well, we firmly believe that Minsk is the path forward here. And the Russians signed it, the Ukrainians signed it. And the Russians, when we were there, said privately and publicly they would implement it, which they haven’t done yet. And we believe it is the right framework moving forward to de-escalate here; that it has in it the ingredients we need. What needs to happen isn’t some new framework; it’s the Russians actually implementing it.

QUESTION: Well, given what you’ve said today, do you – are you saying then that we were – when we – that when we were in Sochi, that President Putin and Foreign Minister Lavrov lied to the Secretary?

MS HARF: Not at all. Not at all.

QUESTION: Oh. Well, what --

MS HARF: They said it – Foreign Minister Lavrov said it in his press availability.

QUESTION: Right. But you seem to be taken aback a little bit by the fact that there is fighting going on and saying that the Russians are violating it.

MS HARF: Well --

QUESTION: So I just want to know: Do you think the Russians are backing out --

MS HARF: I mean --

QUESTION: -- going back on their word that they gave the Secretary?

MS HARF: I’ll let them speak – I’ll let them speak to the reasons why they haven’t fully implemented Minsk yet. That’s what I would say.

QUESTION: And – and then this is going to get back to the Secretary, but do you know if he’s made any calls about this, and – or on other subjects while you’ve been --

MS HARF: He has not today. He has not today.

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В Вашингтоне выражают обеспокоенность в связи с осложнением ситуации на востоке Украины и считают Россию ответственной за это, сообщила в среду на брифинге представитель госдепа США Мари Харф.



"Мы обеспокоены сообщениями, в том числе и от ОБСЕ, о скоординированных атаках пророссийских "сепаратистов" на украинские позиции близ городов и населенных пунктов Донецк, Пески, Луганск и Марьинка", - сказала Харф.
По ее словам, в ходе этих атак, вероятно, использовались ракеты "Град" и другое тяжелое вооружение, которое должно было быть отведено в соответствии с минскими соглашениями.
"Это непростительном и противоречит минским соглашениям", - подчеркнула Харф, отметив, что "прямая ответственность за предотвращение этих нападений и за соблюдение режима прекращения огня лежит на России".

We, Cyber Berkut, keep on our presence in the computer networks of Kiev junta.

This time we have hacked an e-mail of Major General A. Taran, who works as an head expert in the Common center of cease-fire control and coordination. In his letters we have found satellite images, which show multiple violations of the Minsk agreements by Kiev regime. Namely, we are talking about withdrawal of heavy weaponry farther from the contact line in the conflict area.

Here is the screenshot of Taran’s letter sent from the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It also contains an embedded letter of US embassy employee T.Podobinska-Shtyk.

Thereby, it is getting clear that the West and Kiev are informed about all violations and intentionally suppress there facts.

The letter also contains satellite photographs which identify the location of large-calibre artillery in close proximity to the borders of uncontrolled by Kiev areas.

1. Near human settlement Katerynivka there are positions of three 100 mm-field artillery guns
The distance to the contact line is 18 km

QUESTION: Ukraine?

MS HARF: Sure.

QUESTION: Yes. Yesterday you said the rebels are responsible for the vast majority of violations of the peace deal. You said you would check how you came to that conclusion. What’s --

MS HARF: And I did for you, because I said I would.

QUESTION: Thank you.

MS HARF: Yes. And I actually read some of these OSCE daily and weekly reports that you were quoting from. I wanted to get familiar with them.

QUESTION: Some of these or all of these --

MS HARF: Well, I didn’t read all --

QUESTION: -- in two months, in two months.

MS HARF: February – it started on February 15th, was the Minsk implementation, so there’s more than two months of daily reports. But I read some of them just to get familiar with what they look like and what’s in them. And I think just a couple of points here. First, our assessment is, based on OSCE reporting and other sources of information, including the location, the kind of weaponry, and other evidence, that the majority of ceasefire violations, as we’ve said, have been committed by the combined Russian separatist forces.

One thing that struck me about the OSCE reports is that they – their tabulations and analyses by definition do not ascribe blame for who commits these acts. They merely point out where they take place. So I – well, let me finish and then you can follow up. So I’ve looked at some of them and they say, for example, the special monitoring mission noticed this happening in Luhansk. They don’t say who did this. So it’s the analysis that we do with this in addition to location, kind of weaponry, and other sources of information that leads to our judgment that a majority of these were committed by Russian separatist forces. Again, they don’t ascribe blame.

QUESTION: Do you have a number? Do you have a number of violations that you saw in those reports, let’s say, in two months?

MS HARF: Well, there are – the reports, to be fair, don’t always have tabulations in that way. Sometimes they talk about specific incidents in a particular city, but again, they don’t describe blame.

QUESTION: Then how do you come to that conclusion?

MS HARF: Well, as I said --

QUESTION: Do you have a quote from the OSCE spokesperson who says that one of the sides is responsible for the vast majority of violations? Do --

MS HARF: The OSCE does not assign blame for violations. They just note where violations take place and what they look like.

QUESTION: So it is your analysis but without a number. You are saying the overwhelming number of violations, but you don’t have a number. Do you have --

MS HARF: So how we do the – well, how we do this analysis is we take a look at the OSCE reports and we go through them and note where they take place, what kinds of weapons are used, who’s operating in that area, who has the ability to use those weapons. We match that up with other information we have that’s out there in the public domain – certainly other information we have as well – to make a determination, an analytic determination about who was responsible for these different kinds of violations.

QUESTION: So it is your analytical determination. So we’ve looked at --

MS HARF: Based on a body of evidence.

QUESTION: -- at the daily reports of the OSCE for the last two months --

MS HARF: And I did – I did this morning as well.

QUESTION: Well, we counted the violations and – ceasefire violations and weapons withdrawal violations, and the numbers are about the same.

MS HARF: But -- well, the OSCE --

QUESTION: I cited them yesterday and I can do that now.

MS HARF: But are those your --

QUESTION: But okay, for example --

MS HARF: Wait, are those your numbers? Because they’re not – OSCE numbers don’t assign blame.

QUESTION: I understand. So you are analyzing the reports; also, we can do that too.

MS HARF: And you’re analyzing them.

QUESTION: We can see those daily reports. So one of – an example of a report: May 1st, just outside government-controlled Nikolaev, 41 kilometers south of Donetsk, the SMM – the monitoring mission --

MS HARF: Mm-hmm.

QUESTION: -- saw three what it assessed to be outgoing tank rounds fired from a location approximately two kilometers to the north. An incoming round followed, impacting approximately 200 meters north of the SMM’s position. So that is an example. And it looks like one side fires and the other responds. You see that in many of the reports. Wouldn’t that make for equal – an equal number of violations on both sides?

MS HARF: Well, in that very limited example you’re noting from May 1st, but we’re taking a look at the entire breadth of reporting from February 15th, when the Minsk – when Minsk took effect, to now, which is much more than two months. And so if you look overall at every single daily report --

QUESTION: What about two months – in the last two months? What --

MS HARF: Well, why are you – I’m just curious why you’re picking two months. Because our assessment is overall since Minsk, which was February 15th – overall since February 15th, a majority of violations has been by the --

QUESTION: Do you have a number?

MS HARF: I’m happy to see if there’s a number to share, but again, it’s --

QUESTION: But you said yesterday that you would see what that share of violations is.

MS HARF: And I think I’ve gotten quite a bit of information for you today on how we do this. I’ve looked at the reports you were citing to make sure I was familiar with them and noted, I think, particularly that, again, the OSCE does not assign blame. They tabulate what has happened, as you mentioned. So we – our team goes through – has gone through every daily report, and it began implementation on February 15th – that’s much more than two months – and our overall assessment, based on that, is that a majority of these have been committed by the Russian separatist forces.

QUESTION: So one of the latest statements from the OSCE spokesperson is visited many heavy weapons – that the mission visited many heavy weapon sites on both sides and have reported missing weaponry. So they mentioned both sides, something that you never do.

MS HARF: That’s not true. I have repeatedly said that we call on both sides here to uphold the Minsk agreement they both agreed to.

QUESTION: Call on them, but what they’re actually doing, you never criticized the side that you are supporting.

MS HARF: As I said yesterday, a majority of these are committed by Russian separatist forces. So by definition that means a minority are committed by the other side. I also said that yesterday as well.

QUESTION: Marie, one thing that is different today, when you have been asked about this in the past you and also Jeff, which seems to have changed today, is that prior to today you had said “the vast majority,” “the overwhelming majority.” And today you’re saying just the majority.

MS HARF: There’s – I --

QUESTION: Is that intended to be --

MS HARF: No, there’s not.

QUESTION: You haven’t gone back --

MS HARF: I’m not trying to change from yesterday.

QUESTION: So you still think – it is still the U.S. Government’s assessment that the vast or overwhelming majority of violations are coming from the separatist side?

MS HARF: That’s certainly my understanding, and I would also point out --

QUESTION: But that’s not what you – but that’s not what you said.

MS HARF: Okay.

QUESTION: I mean, I just want to make sure that --

MS HARF: Thank you for being – no, I appreciate that. But I also think, Matt, it’s important to remember the big picture here and the context of what is happening. Between the September Minsk agreement and the February implementation plan, combined Russian-separatist forces seized hundreds of square kilometers of Ukrainian territory in direct contravention to the agreement they had just signed. The OSCE cannot get access to separatist-controlled areas to verify the ceasefire, and I have this map up here; I’m happy to give anyone afterwards that shows the area the Russian-separatist combined forces are preventing the OSCE from even getting to. So I think it’s important, again, to step back and take a look at the bigger context here.

QUESTION: Okay. But I just – I --

QUESTION: But it’s not only – just one --

QUESTION: My question, though, is just on the --

MS HARF: Let’s let Matt ask his question.

QUESTION: Well, I just want to – but the removal of --

MS HARF: I’m not --

QUESTION: -- the word “vast” or “significant” or “substantial” from in front of the word “majority” does it --

MS HARF: I’m happy to say substantial, significant, vast – whatever word you would like.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) in providing access. So in the last two months, it’s not just the rebels that are --

MS HARF: Why are you choosing two months? I’m curious.

QUESTION: Because I read – we read the daily reports from these --

MS HARF: Well, there are some from before two months, though.

QUESTION: Just as an example to give you numbers.

MS HARF: Okay.

QUESTION: So 18 violations by the Ukrainian forces, and 27 by the rebels.

MS HARF: Well, that’s not what the reports say, though. The reports do not assign blame. So you’re assigning blame based on their numbers; the reports do not assign blame, to be very clear.

QUESTION: But – but --

MS HARF: I’ve read the reports as well.

QUESTION: You’re – aren’t you doing the same thing?

MS HARF: Based on a whole of analysis.

QUESTION: You’re analyzing their daily reports, right?

MS HARF: But so – just be very clear, that’s your analysis.

QUESTION: We are analyzing them too.

MS HARF: Right, right.

QUESTION: They’re in public domain.

MS HARF: Right, but --

QUESTION: Everyone can do that.

MS HARF: But wait, let me finish. To be clear, that’s your analysis of what the OSCE is reporting. The OSCE does not say X number of violations by either side. The OSCE does not say those in those reports. And if you want to see this map, this red part --

QUESTION: But when you’re saying the overwhelming number --

MS HARF: Wait, no, let me finish. This red part right here is the area that the Russian-separatist forces won’t let OSCE monitors in. How --

QUESTION: Do you have the area where the Ukrainian forces do not let them in?

MS HARF: Yes. It’s this very tiny yellow tip right there. And I’m happy to give this to you after the briefing, if you’d like.

QUESTION: Where is that? Where does it come from?

MS HARF: It comes from the British Government. I’m happy to give it to you after the briefing.

QUESTION: But not from the OSCE, right?

MS HARF: Go ahead.

QUESTION: It doesn’t come from the OSCE, does it?

QUESTION: Can we go to Egypt?

MS HARF: We can move on, yes.

QUESTION: On Ukraine? I have one more.

MS HARF: Oh, sure. Yes.

QUESTION: The head of the Poroshenko bloc earlier today called for a food blockade on Donbass region. He said, until the terrorists give up prisoners, we’re going to continue firing, and we’re not going to give them food. Any – he asked the Ukraine citizens that they’re obligated to move to Ukraine free territory. Do you agree with these proposals? What is your reaction?

MS HARF: I’m sorry, I hadn’t seen those. I’m happy to check with our team for you.

Arshad.

QUESTION: Okay. Quick one on Russia?

MS HARF: Okay. Sure.

QUESTION: Yesterday there was a report the Pentagon is seeking to ease sanctions on RD-180s rockets. They need the rockets. What is the State Department position on this?

MS HARF: I’m – I haven’t heard of that. I’m happy to point you to the Pentagon.

QUESTION: Just one short question about your statement on the --

MS HARF: Okay.

QUESTION: -- shelling of Marinka. Right, you had a – you made a statement yesterday about that.

MS HARF: Correct, yes.

QUESTION: Did you have a statement? Did you have anything to say about the shelling of the city of Donetsk the day before on June 2nd?

MS HARF: I’m --

QUESTION: There was heavy shelling on June 2nd.

MS HARF: Okay. I’m happy to check into that question with our team on the ground.

QUESTION: Why do you focus only on the violations by the rebels?

MS HARF: I don’t think that that’s the case. I pointed out a number of aggressive violations into Ukrainian Government territory across the ceasefire line just in the past 24 hours. I’m happy to look into any report you give me and to make a comment on it based on the facts on the ground and what we actually see there. I’m happy to.

QUESTION: But you choose to focus on one thing and not the other.

MS HARF: I’m glad that that’s your opinion, but again, we call it like we see it, and this is how we see what’s happening in eastern Ukraine.